tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post5421436135268244006..comments2024-02-11T08:56:42.753+00:00Comments on It's Not A Zero Sum Game: Portable safe spaces and occupying the occupationMarina Shttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14449789093721258516noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-55964603704962323482019-05-25T23:34:45.774+01:002019-05-25T23:34:45.774+01:00Hi, it's me, Rob C, the person who wrote all t...Hi, it's me, Rob C, the person who wrote all that shit above all those years ago.<br /><br />All these years later I have remembered this conversation and want to say that I now think that you were right. I spent more time listening to the women in my life and was fortunate to have good friends, including feminists of various stripes, who were happy to discuss questions that I had. I'm still probably not perfect - but these days I hope I am at least somewhat less of a dickhead. And yes, I was a dickhead back then, and I accept it and apologise for it. <br /><br />Sometimes taking the time to explain to men why they're being shit works. Keep at it.<br /><br />In peace,<br /><br />Rob CRob Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-2668573167428915222012-07-25T20:04:46.412+01:002012-07-25T20:04:46.412+01:00I am shocked at the behaviour here. Shocked.
This...I am shocked at the behaviour here. Shocked.<br /><br />This in particular:<br /><br />"ian: I'm, like, taken and that, so don't take this the wrong way, but I think I'm a tiny bit in love.<br /><br />Rob C: you're a dickhead. Move on."<br /> - Marina S (October 25, 2011 11:31 PM)<br /><br /><br />My goodness me. To congratulate such disgusting and ignorant comments by a poster and then to call Rob a "dickhead" based on what he said is utterly, utterly despicable.<br />You and ian are Part Of The Problem.<br /><br />While Rob was apparently unaware of the term gender egalitarianism, this should not count against what was said. He clearly was going in the right direction.<br />You and ian are going the exact opposite way and will cause great harm without a course change.<br /><br />I am angry, disgusted and disappointed in equal measure.<br /><br /> - TThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11984223806894296241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-19819970835252707572012-02-23T04:28:00.900+00:002012-02-23T04:28:00.900+00:00Thanks for sharing, I will bookmark and be back ag...Thanks for sharing, I will bookmark and be back again<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.bestpropertyworld.com/property-for-sale-in-bristol.html" rel="nofollow">House, Flats for Sale in Bristol</a>kaviyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02297373795488679612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-69822045536031939522011-11-17T10:08:05.363+00:002011-11-17T10:08:05.363+00:00Thank you so much Robin! That's made my week, ...Thank you so much Robin! That's made my week, that has. :)Marina Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14449789093721258516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-50320060766628412952011-11-16T18:33:06.577+00:002011-11-16T18:33:06.577+00:00Marina, you're terrific. Get some support from...Marina, you're terrific. Get some support from great new now-going-worldwide movement, OccupyPatriarchy.org--which women in diff. countries are connecting with in order to raise serious issues of sexism (regarding both safety AND political analysis not factoring in women's centrality to economics) in the Occupy movement while still supporting it. In sisterhood,<br />Robin MorganRobin Morganhttp://www.robinmorgan.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-63350246359216665772011-11-01T13:01:46.077+00:002011-11-01T13:01:46.077+00:00Just for the record Marina, I think that its not o...Just for the record Marina, I think that its not only healthy but also necessary for there to be a feminist presence on camp, so I hope some of you decide to move on site, I would certainly be glad to see some of you there when I visit even if I don't always agree with some of your perspectives. That's just my thoughts anyway...Robin Whitlockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05144555444059516672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-62045343659891613702011-10-31T21:55:49.140+00:002011-10-31T21:55:49.140+00:00Wow, a lot of interesting comments while I've ...Wow, a lot of interesting comments while I've been away! Definitely planning to write something about how Thursday went once I a) get back into the swing of things and b) have an opportunity to talk to a few of the other women there and collect their recollections/feedback. Rock on! :)<br /><br />PS Please please let's not import Elevatorgate into this space, anonymous. I say this more in sorrow than anger: any comments skirting even marginally close to the topic will have to be respectfully deleted.Marina Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14449789093721258516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-45821273104195813722011-10-30T16:24:18.825+00:002011-10-30T16:24:18.825+00:00You mention "one gets catcalled, groped and p...You mention "one gets catcalled, groped and propositioned way more in places like SciFi/geek/atheist/comics conventions and fan clubs than at events with a more even gender distribution like pop concerts or weddings."<br /><br />This is just my guess but I believe those kinds of conventions and fan clubs attract socially inept people to a far greater extent than pop concerts and weddings. Although groping goes on at those events too in my experience. But it's not really a fair test, because alcoholAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-43420130108113059942011-10-29T17:21:54.476+01:002011-10-29T17:21:54.476+01:00Hi, just came by to express curiosity about how it...Hi, just came by to express curiosity about how it went on Thursday - if you're planning to write that up, I'd like to read it.Jenniferhttp://www.uncharted-worlds.org/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-63999721499492663872011-10-29T02:25:38.675+01:002011-10-29T02:25:38.675+01:00I'm curious too. And my apologies for being an...I'm curious too. And my apologies for being an ass. I get it now.Psychotherapist https://www.blogger.com/profile/00751991243469021551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-2286200256394065412011-10-29T00:21:20.557+01:002011-10-29T00:21:20.557+01:00So how do you feel it went? Did you feel welcome a...So how do you feel it went? Did you feel welcome and at ease at Occupy Bristol?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-52358492178664384532011-10-28T20:24:50.747+01:002011-10-28T20:24:50.747+01:00Ally F said:
"That's interesting, becaus...Ally F said:<br /><br />"That's interesting, because I don't remember much of that."<br /><br />Well I concede you might be right actually, basically because I got my information at the time from 'Do Or Die' (a particular issue to be exact), but as I never actually made it to Newbury myself (unfortunately) I can't testify as to its authenticity. There were however some strong women at Solsbury Hill and I have to say they held their space very well, and rightly so...Robin Whitlocknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-64036328494988735942011-10-28T20:21:54.595+01:002011-10-28T20:21:54.595+01:00@sianandcrookedrib
I came back have a look and s...@sianandcrookedrib <br /><br />I came back have a look and see if anyone had said anything constructive and saw your post. Thank you for taking the time and patience, and for being reasonable. Like any movement often all it takes is a bit of time to talk to people about what you are doing and have done to make them understand it better. Although I am still not convinced that feminism in its current form is necessarily the way forward, my understanding of the feminist movement is now a little more informed and I have a better understanding and a little more respect for what you doing, and I think it is great. And even if it does move eventually evolve, the actions of the people who made a difference and got this far should never be forgotten - they are or were great people.<br /><br />Much respect, and thank you.Rob Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-23601581378122008582011-10-28T19:23:04.647+01:002011-10-28T19:23:04.647+01:00Just got this through a group, Decolonize Together...Just got this through a group, Decolonize Together, that is trying to transform partriarchal, racist, sexist, and homophobic dynamics at Occupy San Francisco. Love it! It's interesting to think about what is gained in visibility and safety by organizing around identity (as women, people of color, queers, trannies) as compared to in mixed groups of feminists, anti-racists etc.<br /><br />In solidarity from the streets of Oakland!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-43237193916711250592011-10-28T17:29:17.192+01:002011-10-28T17:29:17.192+01:00This resonates with my experience in San Francisco...This resonates with my experience in San Francisco/ Oakland as well. For SF add in a big dollop of queer/genderqueer issues and the people that don't understand them. I've heard lots of division over the issue. Your experience and proposal are interesting, and remind me of the efficacy of affinity groups and spokescouncils.<br /><br />Thanks for posting this. I suggest women who feel intimidated by the harassment form affinity groups of women, and collaborate to make sure that they can attend events and actions in enough numbers to feel safe. At SF GA last night, someone pointed out that your affinity group is also your first line of defenders if the march is attacked - they are the people who will help you if the police shoot you in the head with tear gas.<br /><br />I will continue as I have been doing, talking with all the mens and demanding their respect as an equal. Now I might try to get more women in one place at one time though.Medium Realityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174972567643316423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-43130613541111755482011-10-28T14:27:20.269+01:002011-10-28T14:27:20.269+01:00Given the events at Occupy Glasgow it is important...Given the events at Occupy Glasgow it is important that all other occupations are safe spaces.Mhairi McAlpinehttp://mhairi.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-52383795662957502492011-10-28T13:04:43.193+01:002011-10-28T13:04:43.193+01:00Wow, why are people getting so angry that women wa...Wow, why are people getting so angry that women want a space to tehmselves? This is an AMAZING idea! I passed by the Occupy LSX camp, read all the posters, grinned from ear-to-ear but spoke to NO ONE because I couldn't see anyone who wasn't a frowning man who looked very busy. If there was a marked safe-space, or as you've suggested a big board saying, "Ask us about women's issues in this movement!" I would have stayed and talked.<br /><br />I really hope the other movements take up your idea. I think it will make it more accessible to those of us (ie, women) who support the movement but don't havea background in demonstration/occupations/can't dedicate days and days to the movement/don't know anyone involved in it, etc.<br /><br />It's a shame the comments seem to have devolved into a sulking fit of, "But what about ME?!"Vickyhttp://www.twitter.com/princesstoffeeenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-45745149125794190262011-10-28T11:46:04.352+01:002011-10-28T11:46:04.352+01:00RobinWhitlock
"The same process, I seem to r...<b>RobinWhitlock</b><br /><br /><i>"The same process, I seem to remember, was going on during the road protests of the 1990's and I remember reading regular articles by women concerning the behaviour of male activists at protest camps and the intrusion of patriarchal attitudes into the camps, I'm not sure if it was ever sorted out properly because these discussions were still being held in the final days of the protest camp at Newbury as far as I am aware, and Newbury was basically the last large road protest of that era."<br /></i><br /><br />That's interesting, because I don't remember much of that. I remember a lot of debates about macho aggression towards bailiffs etc, occasional squabbles about gendered insults etc, and a lot of self-examination, but in the context of months and months of free-flowing debate about all sorts of political theory (there were a lot of hours to kill)<br /><br />I don't remember any articles or complaints about women feeling threatened or excluded, the way we are seeing around Occupy. <br /><br />My hunch is that the 90s eco-movement had stronger historical lineage with the peace camps, the anarcho-punk movement, which had much stronger feminist influences than new generation. <br /><br />But I'm prepared to accept that my memories and impressions are completely false, if anyone else has an opinion? Interested in this question.AllyFhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/allyfoggnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-18001783229963510242011-10-28T08:45:26.186+01:002011-10-28T08:45:26.186+01:00@ Marina. Regarding your comments to Simon:
&quo...@ Marina. Regarding your comments to Simon: <br /><br />"It frankly astonishes me that you feel the need to explain to me that I "come across" as bad tempered and patronising, Simon. Because I was being so openly bad tempered, and so obviously intent on patronising you, that you must think me stupid to the point of comatose if you really believe I hadn't noticed.<br /><br />Wherein, of course, lies the problem. Go back and read everything you have written here; delete anything that you would not consider pointing out to someone whose basic intelligence you have confidence in; gaze in dismay on the remaining prepositions, flanked by the occasional punctuation mark.<br /><br />Then talk to me about about fucking "patronising"."<br /><br />I was actually with you until you uttered this diatribe. Simon was actually attempting to say something positive on this issue and finding a way to welcome you in, but your response seems to indicate that anything that comes out of a man's mouth is automatically considered either 'patronising' or 'abusive' or what not.<br /><br />Moving on though, I think that the issue of women being abused or hassled when they visit the camp is a good one, and if it needs women to be 'standoffish with a sign' or something then so be it. My feelings are that the issues of patriarchy absolutely underlie the present system we are trying to change and therefore a strong feminist presence at the camp is something to be welcomed. <br /><br />The same process, I seem to remember, was going on during the road protests of the 1990's and I remember reading regular articles by women concerning the behaviour of male activists at protest camps and the intrusion of patriarchal attitudes into the camps, I'm not sure if it was ever sorted out properly because these discussions were still being held in the final days of the protest camp at Newbury as far as I am aware, and Newbury was basically the last large road protest of that era. <br /><br />I would suggest (at the risk of sounding patronising) that a 'women's circle' within or just outside the camp would be a really good idea, but of course that is something for feminists to decide for themselves.<br /><br />But I would also suggest that there has to be found a way in which men can also comment on issues of patriarchy and gender politics without the fear of being receiving an angry response, a solution to this may be to establish some kind of ground rules for dialogue beforehand, as it has to be remembered that many men have been conditioned by the system over many years and therefore do not necessarily realise it themselves if they are being patronising or abusive. For that reason, quite justifiable anger from a woman in response can often seem to be an attack on a man purely on the basis that he's opened his mouth and contributed to the discussion in the first, and therefore interpreted as an attack purely on the basis of being male in the first place.Robin Whitlockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05144555444059516672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-85542471322896469892011-10-27T11:47:25.851+01:002011-10-27T11:47:25.851+01:00@John - yes. well said.@John - yes. well said.sianandcrookedribhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00959715300131969670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-35234580131975743202011-10-27T11:46:47.927+01:002011-10-27T11:46:47.927+01:00I think this thread really demonstrates how defens...I think this thread really demonstrates how defensive people get when they are asked to question their privilege and challenge the ways in which they are speaking to people who don't share all their privilege - in this instance women and men. <br /><br />The occupy movement as far as i can see has big issues with inclusivity and listening to women's voices. Some have invited an accused rapist to speak. Some members in Bristol have called women sexist names and some members in other cities have sexually assaulted women. They've then told those women to not report it for 'the good of the movement'. What good is a movement that perpetuates and repeats the crimes of patriarchy? Some have dismissed women's concerns, some have ignored the truths about women's poverty and how there are more women in the 99% and more men in the 1%. I feel so sad that I feel excluded from the movement that is supposed to include everyone. <br /><br />I think a lot of the men on the thread and in the occupy movement need to question their privilege a bit more, look at what they're saying and challenge themselves. Ask yourselves, Why is what i've said seen as patronising? why is what i've said seen as aggressive? Why is what i've said seem dismissive of women's valid concerns. And then learn from that. <br /><br />There's no point getting defensive and complaining that people are being mean to you or that we're not listening. Because you also need to listen to what we're saying. <br /><br />As a feminist, feminism has taught me so much about privilege. I have a lot of it. It's not my fault, but it means i have to make an effort to look at, question and challenge my privilege and ensure that what i do does not exclude or silence others who don't have the same privilege. <br /><br />We ALL need to do this ALL the time. <br /><br />Otherwise we're not fighting for a better world for all, we're just fighting for ourselves. <br /><br />PS - if you want to hear people really patronise you and be aggressive, try being a feminist blogger! rape threats, name calling, physical threats - all in a day's work!sianandcrookedribhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00959715300131969670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-40990647940843048882011-10-27T11:41:26.170+01:002011-10-27T11:41:26.170+01:00@Simon: Personally, I feel it would be in line wit...@Simon: Personally, I feel it would be in line with the Occupy Movement in general to expend my/your/our efforts on ensuring that people of whatever group can use the space in whatever way they choose, as long as that does not restrict any other group from doing the same. <br /><br />If Occupy Glasgow is anything to go by, I think we should be listening to women who wish to participate and doing everything we can to facilitate them to use the space in whatever way they choose in order to feel safe as they do so.Psychotherapist https://www.blogger.com/profile/00751991243469021551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-70817996541416068962011-10-26T20:33:25.660+01:002011-10-26T20:33:25.660+01:00Marina,
I simply didn't expect to be abused ...Marina, <br /><br />I simply didn't expect to be abused in this way for the crime of being alive while male.<br /><br />You presumably get a lot of enjoyment out of being angry. Good for you.<br /><br />Simon<br /><br />@John You're right. I think we've got better things to expend our efforts on.Simon Deeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-80307648362334948652011-10-26T19:06:02.859+01:002011-10-26T19:06:02.859+01:00John: douze points. :)John: douze points. :)Marina Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14449789093721258516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6510624476585230434.post-72397349173602987672011-10-26T18:28:38.647+01:002011-10-26T18:28:38.647+01:00@Simon: I've thought long and hard last night ...@Simon: I've thought long and hard last night and today about this. I think Marina's point, and she'll no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, is that Marina and any other woman who chooses to join her, can do whatever the fuck they want, especially if that is in order to feel safe. Who are we to tell them what to do?<br /><br />And who, when all is said and done, can argue with that?Psychotherapist https://www.blogger.com/profile/00751991243469021551noreply@blogger.com